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STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL POLICY Monday 7 February 2005
ACCESSIBILITY
FOR ONTARIANS WITH Consideration of Bill 118, An Act respecting the development, implementation and enforcement of standards relating to accessibility with respect to goods, services, facilities, employment, accommodation, buildings and all other things specified in the Act for persons with disabilities / Projet de loi 118, Loi traitant de l'élaboration, de la mise en oeuvre et de l'application de normes concernant l'accessibilité pour les personnes handicapées en ce qui concerne les biens, les services, les installations, l'emploi, le logement, les bâtiments et toutes les autres choses qu'elle précise. The Acting Chair (Mr. Jeff Leal): We'll bring this meeting of the standing committee on social policy to order. Good morning, and welcome to the public hearings in Thunder Bay by the standing committee on social policy for Bill 118, the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act. I'd like to point out some services provided to improve the accessibility of these hearings. In addition to French-language interpretation, the meeting is provided with closed captioning, and sign language interpreters are available as required. We also have two support services attendants available for anyone in the audience who may have special personal assistance needs during the day. These hearings are being taped so that they may be broadcast across the province. Today's meeting will be broadcast on the parliamentary channel on cable TV on Wednesday, February 9. There will be a Web-cast the same day. The Web-cast is available at www.ontla.on.ca, and all meetings will be archived for the month of February. We're waiting for the Chairman, Mario Racco, to come. I guess he's been delayed somewhat. I'm Jeff Leal, the member for the riding of Peterborough. We'll commence this morning's proceedings. We'll have 15 minutes per presentation, and any time left over will be available for questions on a three-party rotation basis. The Acting Chair: First of all, I'd like to welcome Tracy Lynn Hurlbert. Good morning, and welcome to our proceedings. I'm glad you're with us today. Ms. Tracy Lynn Hurlbert: Thank you. I'm glad to be here today. I'm actually representing myself here and my little sister, who also has a disability. Some of these things may also be of interest to other people with disabilities in wheelchairs. One of the main problems I've been having lately is with the city of Thunder Bay, with the bus stops not being cleared out in the wintertime. My bus stop has been cleared out once -- actually, twice now -- all winter. Being in a wheelchair, I'm the one who's clearing it out. I have MS, I've got asthma, I've got one hand that works, and I'm the one who has to clear out the bus stop in front of my house so I can access the bus. I'm just thinking, I know there are other people here who live in areas that are also underserviced by bus clearing. It's kind of scary thinking that we have this equal access to get on the buses, but we have no way of getting to where the buses are going to pick us up. I realize that this year we did have a lot of snow, but my bus stop wasn't cleared out until more than five days after the last snowfall. I understand that the city was behind in their snow clearing, but there are some things that have to come first, and one is access for people with disabilities. In an area where there are seven people in wheelchairs using the buses, you'd think that would be a priority area. I know they can't have every area as a priority, but still, when there's a person who uses the bus every day, and there are a couple of other people in wheelchairs who use the bus every day, this area should be kept cleared. The city sidewalk actually wasn't even cleared out until Friday. I had to phone the mayor's office to get it cleared out. When they did it, they did a really good job, but I shouldn't have to call the mayor's office to get something like that done. I had no access at all to the street from my house. I made the mistake of getting off the bus a couple of stops early so I could go to the store, got up to my place and discovered I couldn't get on the sidewalk. I stood out there and I stood out there and I walked around and I tried to figure out some way to get on my sidewalk. My neighbour had to come and shovel me out. I'd been outside for about half an hour at that time, just trying to get into my own home. Everybody else takes for granted that you can get on the sidewalks and get home even through a little bit of snow, but these power wheelchairs are not built to go through the snow. You get an inch and a half of snow and that's about it; you're stuck. Sometimes, there's ice under there too, and you could fall down and get injured. Just because you're in a chair doesn't mean you can't fall over. It's pretty ridiculous to expect me to shovel out my bus stop, and that's basically what I was told by one of the transit people when I phoned the manager. I was told, "Well, can't you get someone to clear it out for you?" I'm supposed to pay somebody to clear out my bus stop? I'm on a disability pension; I don't have a lot of money. I shouldn't be expected to pay for someone to clear out my bus stop, when nobody else has to. One of the other things I noticed also recently is when my little sister gets on the bus. She can't talk; she uses a computer to talk. She says that a lot of people are very impatient with her, including bus drivers. When she complains to management, management just says, "You should have an attendant with you." She doesn't need an attendant with her. She's mentally fine. She lives in a group home, and if she weren't mentally fine, they would make the decision for her that she couldn't use the buses. But she's perfectly fine; she's capable of using the buses. She knows when to get off. She keeps getting hassled by drivers to bring someone with her. She says it's getting embarrassing when she gets on the bus and the drivers all go, "Ugh," because she takes a while to get on. That makes her take a lot longer, because she's got cerebral palsy. You get nervous with any disability. If you get nervous, it does take you a while longer to get on the bus. There's one driver in particular with whom it takes her almost five minutes to get on the bus, because he makes all these faces and comments and stuff like that. Yet when we complain to Thunder Bay Transit, they do nothing about it. They say, "Well, then, she should have an attendant with her." She doesn't need one. Her group home -- these are professionals who know what they're talking about. They know if she's capable of getting on a bus or not, and they think she is. I don't think it's fair for someone who doesn't have the education to turn around and say that she can't get on the bus by herself. That's not fair and that is discrimination, in a way. Because she can't speak for herself, they think they can speak for her and say things like that. It's really sad and it's disturbing to me that in this day and age people would still think that just because someone can't talk, they don't think very well. She's actually been told that. She's been told by a couple of drivers now that they won't pick her up unless she has an attendant with her because they don't know where she's going. They say, "You need to have someone with you. I don't know where you're going. Do you know where you're going?" And they don't wait to give her a chance to answer. They just automatically tell her, "Keep going. I don't have time to listen to you." It's pretty sad if you don't have a few minutes to listen to someone, especially someone who uses the buses every day and pays her fare. The other thing I've noticed lately too is when I was at the hospital yesterday -- that was fun. I think we need to have better codes as far as wheelchair access goes. It's OK to say that a bathroom has to be wheelchair-accessible, but what does that mean, really? You have to give examples of what an accessible bathroom should look like. Someone who isn't familiar with wheelchairs or whatever -- there are lots of things we don't think of. Being in a chair myself, of course, I think of these things. My own mother and father, when they were designing their home, designed it wrong and had to redesign a few things. If they can design it wrong, then someone who has no experience at all with disabilities could do that too. Even here, I noticed the washroom -- you can get into the hotel but you can't get into the washroom. There are no power doors. A washroom is a necessity. I think they should have some kind of power doors, or they should do what one of our local malls did, and that is, they designed the bathroom so they don't need a door on there. You can just go around a curve and get in there. I think one of those two options should be made as far as a code goes so that people can use the bathroom when they have to. Also, at the hospital all the toilets are low. There isn't a single high toilet there to be had at all. When I went to the hospital yesterday, I had to wait over an hour while they looked for a high toilet seat for me, because the toilets they put in are not compatible with high seats that you can purchase on the market. So they spent over an hour looking for a high toilet seat for me. I'll tell you, I was getting quite worried there for a while. I think it's kind of silly; it's a hospital and it's not accessible. There are no accessible showers in there. When I was in the hospital, I waited two weeks before I got my hair washed. I've got long hair. Can you imagine what that must have been like, two weeks without having it washed? The nurses don't have time. I understand that they don't have time to be taking me into the bathroom to have a bath. I'm perfectly capable of having a shower by myself, but without the wheel-in showers, I can't do it. I think it's kind of silly that they're making the nurses take more time to do things when these people are already overworked. Even the bathrooms in the patients' rooms, again, they have no high seats. Anyone who requires a high seat -- people who've had hip replacements or people who are disabled in any way, shape or form -- good luck finding one. They're pretty rare there. You have to wait for a nurse to come and help you, when in actuality, if you're capable of doing it yourself, you're basically wasting this person's time by doing something like that. It's not your fault, but nurses have other things to do too. I think they should have put those high seats in as an option, so that anyone who needs one and can do it by themselves doesn't have to bother the nurses with something they're perfectly capable of doing. I noticed at the hospital too that they also have doors without any power access to them. Again, you're at the mercy of the hospital staff, asking them to open doors and stuff like that. And if you're visiting someone in the hospital, forget using the high seat, forget using the commode; you're not allowed to. You can't use the commode. Those are for patients only. So again, you're at the mercy of the hospital staff, running around looking to find a high seat. Someone actually suggested that I carry one with me. Do you have to carry a toilet seat with you everywhere you go? It's kind of silly to expect me to have to carry a high toilet seat. Where am I going to carry it? On the back of my chair? That's loaded kind of high. How am I supposed to reach it? So again I'm at the mercy of other people being able to help me at a time when I need to be able to do things myself. When I went to discuss this with the manager there -- I just wanted to leave a note for him -- I got upstairs and the administration offices aren't accessible. There is no power door to get in there. So you can't even ask a face-to-face question. You have to wait for someone to notice that you're out there and open the door for you. While I was there, I noticed that there's a beautiful reception desk now, out in the open where you can get to it, but I don't know if they were planning on hiring anyone in a wheelchair because when I got to that reception desk, it's built right in and there is only a very little amount of space to get behind it. You can't fit a wheelchair back there. So unless they're purposely planning not to hire someone with a disability, it's kind of silly that they would put the desk so close to the wall that no one in a wheelchair can get past it. When they're hiring someone, the only people they can hire, if they don't want to do repairs, is someone who can stand up and walk through there. Again, I find it quite disturbing that in this day and age something like that, when it's brand spanking new, was built without that in mind. There are a lot of things that are good about our hospital, but those are some of the things that are very troubling to me. There is a lack of access and there's a lack of signage too as to where wheelchair-accessible things are. Sometimes you have to look for the bathroom. There's no signage up above where you can find what's going on. You actually have to walk down the hall and look. A friend of mine who is deaf was saying there's also a problem with reaching the TTY machines, the teletype machines. There's no signage as to where they are. There are three of them in the hospital, but good luck finding them. You have to know where they are before you can find them. You have to look at every phone. That's kind of ridiculous, if you're in a hurry and you have to call somebody, to be looking around the hospital for a phone you can use. As well, when I was there I noticed that the nurses, doctors and staff are also not very well educated as to how to deal with someone with a disability. They were quite troubled by the fact that I'm hard of hearing. Every time I rang for the nurse, they'd answer me and I didn't know that they were answering me. They kept saying, "You keep ringing but you don't answer when we ask you what's going on." Well, I don't hear you when you answer me. You have to come down and talk to me. There should be some better way of doing this so that the nurses aren't bothered all the time with running down the hall. There's got to be some way of getting hold of the nurses for people who are hard of hearing so the nurses don't have to be running all over the place. I'm not sure what they could put in there, text messaging or something like that, so you can get hold of the nursing station. Very few of them actually understand sign language or the fact that you have to have the lights on when you're talking to someone who is hard of hearing. They come in in the middle of the night and I can hear that they're talking but I can't tell what they're saying. They might just be quacking for all I know. They come in and say something and I can't tell what they're talking about. Then they get frustrated with me because I'm hard of hearing. That's not something you choose. Also, when they built the rooms, they are too small for people in wheelchairs. When I was in the hospital, in order for my roommate to get in and out, we had to move my chair out of the room. If there's ever a fire, they're going to have to move me out on the bed or they're going to have to remember to get my chair or they're going to have to transfer me to another chair. That, to me, is a troublesome issue, considering I had one wheelchair lost in the old hospital. It took us over a day to find it. That was my own wheelchair. It also troubles me that if you're in a wheelchair and you're in the hospital, what if someone in a wheelchair wants to visit you? You've got to weave through all the equipment and everything else. If those rooms were just about a foot or two bigger, that would make all the difference in the world. But they were so concerned about space constraints, they didn't think about the actual access. We've got a beautiful building, but there is a lot of wasted space. I think they could have made those rooms just a little bit bigger and had a lot less wasted space. I have one more concern. It's about access to services for people with disabilities. In this city, it's really difficult when you want to go see someone at city hall. Some of the city services at Victoriaville -- there's no power door to get in there, and it's a city service. To me, it's vitally important that we be able to talk to different people in different departments, but, again, without power doors, there's no way to do it. Housing in this city is a nightmare in a wheelchair. I just discovered -- I'm on the waiting list -- that it's going to take me over a year to find a wheelchair-accessible apartment. It has been so long since we've had a raise in our disability cheques for accommodations. As far as I'm concerned, that raise is important for access, so that we have access to things we need. With that extra money, I would have access to a better apartment. I live in a tenement slum right now, where half the time the heat doesn't work and there are noises going on. There are drug dealers in my apartment building and all kinds of stuff like that that I don't need to deal with, but because I don't have enough of a disability cheque, I can't get out of there. I'm literally stuck there until I can find a non-profit-housing place, and there aren't enough of those in Thunder Bay that are wheelchair-accessible. I think we need to concentrate on getting all landlords, not necessarily just those that are non-profit, to build their buildings with wheelchair access in mind. When I see a brand new apartment building coming up and there's no access, it's almost like saying that people with disabilities aren't welcome. That's the way I see it. I know that may not be what the person actually means. When you build something brand new, it should have to be wheelchair-accessible and barrier-free. All new apartment buildings should have to be barrier-free, because maybe some of the people who are in those wheelchair-accessible apartments right now want to move to these other places. Maybe they don't need to be in a rent-controlled apartment, but that's all they can get. If we have more choice of apartments, I think that will free up a lot more of the non-profit apartments too. The raise in disability cheques for apartments is vital for me. It's vital for everyone. Thank you. The Chair (Mr. Mario G. Racco): Thank you, Ms. Hurlbert. I know that two of the local MPPs, Mr. Gravelle and Mr. Mauro, are here, and I believe that at least one of them has a question. Mr. Gravelle, you have a minute. Mr. Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): Certainly, I want to welcome the committee on behalf of my colleague Bill Mauro, as well. To have you here in Thunder Bay, in northwestern Ontario, is very important. We're very proud of the fact that disability and accessibility issues are at the forefront here in Thunder Bay. Tracy, I want to thank you for appearing before the committee. As always, you bring forward a number of points and issues that I think, quite frankly, are the basis on which we brought this bill forward. Many of the things that you have spoken about, particularly accessibility in terms of washrooms in public institutions -- standards will be set as a result of this legislation. If I could, I want to ask you very quickly whether you've had an opportunity to look at the legislation, and do you have any comments on it, as it's presently put forward? Ms. Hurlbert: I did have a chance to look at the legislation quite a while ago. I don't actually recall seeing anything in there about codes as far as wheelchair access for public buildings, for washrooms and stuff like that. I don't recall seeing any codes for that, and I think there should be because, again, bathrooms are a necessity. We need to have an actual idea. Mr. Gravelle: Indeed there will be, because it will be barrier-free everywhere. You also made reference, obviously, to some of the other public institutions and the private sector, and that, of course, is one of the goals of the legislation. Again, Tracy, you and I know each other quite well, so I'm very grateful that you're appearing here today. The Chair: Thank you very much for your presentation. We went over the time. Thank you again for being here this morning. PERSONS
UNITED FOR SELF-HELP The Chair: The next presentation is from Persons United for Self-Help in Northwestern Ontario Inc. Do we have someone present, please? Ladies, please have a seat. As you were told at the beginning, there will be 15 minutes for your presentation. If there is any time left, we will allow questions or comments to you from the membership. While the presenters get ready, let me also welcome all of you, of course, to this meeting. Most of us are from outside the Thunder Bay area, and we are pleased to be here. I had a lovely evening last night. That's why I was a little late, and I apologize. Some people who used to know my grandfather, who used to be here many, many years ago, got together with me. He was here before I was born -- I was born in Italy -- when he was working in the Thunder Bay area back in the 1940s, 1930s, or 1960s, potentially? I can't remember all those dates. It's nice to be here for the second time in my life, where my father spent most of his life. Thank you. You can start, madam, any time you are ready. Ms. Patricia Seed: Good morning, distinguished officials, appointed committee members, colleagues and friends. Yes, we are from Persons United for Self-Help, and that's PUSH Northwest. The one thing that we should mention right away is that we have moved offices. We are now at 1201 Jasper Drive, Suite B. Our telephone number, fax number and TTY have all stayed the same. We do have pushnwo@tbaytel.net as our same e-mail address, and our Web site address is also the same. We are endeavouring right now to update that Web site. We are very pleased that you have come back to Thunder Bay. We were so pleased when you came here in March. We are especially pleased because northern Ontario is not always looked at as one of the key points for information to come from. We thank those who are responsible for that. We also thank those who are responsible for giving us information on Bill 118. My name is Patricia Seed. I usually use "Pat." I'm the executive director of PUSH Northwest. I am the former information and referral coordinator for the Independent Living Resource Centre here in Thunder Bay. Ron Ross was not able to be with us. He is the founder of PUSH and is the past past president right now. He is on the executive board, of course, and he's also the former executive director of Hagi, which is now called Hagi Community Services for Independence. To my immediate right, I'm happy to say, is Annie Jollymore. She is on our executive board. She is our secretary, and she comes to us with a great deal of experience. She's a past project coordinator for the Independent Living Resource Centre's Access to Justice 2 for People with Disabilities. She has written the manuals What to Do When, and also In Our Shoes, which is about awareness. PUSH is basically consumer-controlled. All of the members on the board are consumers, and we are a cross-disability agency. We not only address or assist individuals who are using wheelchairs, but also other disabilities. Loyal is my guide dog underneath the table here. He's my black Lab, and I've had him with me since earlier this year. Basically, our whole aspect is to empower consumers to be productive so that they can really live meaningful lives, to help them to find the places for the equipment for their everyday needs, and also to look at barrier-free issues and whatever issues are put up to us by consumers. At this point in time I should say that we are very pleased that we have a chance to comment on all of this. We really hope that this is not just a meeting or hearings and then it will go away. We thank those who have had the bill passed through the first and second readings. We thank them and we really look forward to it going with the recommendations that we make for third reading. We are a grassroots organization. With that, I think I will let Annie tell you some of the specific aspects that we are looking at in the legislation. Ms. Annie Jollymore: Hello. PUSH Northwest agrees that people with disabilities represent a real wealth of untapped potential, but social policies will have to be changed, as well as accommodations of a very high standard put into place before this potential can be realized. Barrier-free living involves a lot more than the removal of design and architectural handicaps or access to assistive devices and enabling technologies. In northwestern Ontario, a person with a disability is likely to be unemployed or underemployed; living on a low fixed income; is likely to have attained little more than a high school diploma, if that; have little, if any, disposable income; and is often forced to choose between paying for their lodgings and buying groceries. Many Ontarians with a disability gravitate toward entrepreneurship because potential employers weed them out early in the selection process due to their lack of education and/or experience. However, self-employment is not barrier-free either. Start-up capital is hard to obtain. People who have been long unemployed and generally relying on social assistance benefits may have a poor credit rating or no credit rating. They often encounter disinterest or outright discrimination on the part of business advisors and financial institutions when seeking advice. For those trying to gain independence from ODSP or Ontario Works, finding a job or creating their own results in a loss of medical, dental and other supplementary benefits. For people with high medication or other health care expenses, the transition from social assistance benefits to self-sufficiency likely means no dental plan or medical plan at all. The real possibility of having to declare personal bankruptcy may not seem worth the pain. I can speak to this rather biting reality myself. I have a master of arts degree, no job at this time, no drug plan, and high prescription medication costs. As a person with a disability, I still hope to find another job that allows me to do what I do best, which is research and writing, but I must balance this hope with the knowledge that these kinds of jobs are scarce. Buying my medications can mean not having enough spare cash to pay the rent and utility bills, plus feed a hungry teenager. If I pay the bills in order to keep a roof over our heads, I have to settle for buying high-sugar, high-fat, high-calorie foods and forgoing my prescription meds. If I choose this latter option, I'm in no condition to go job-hunting. Health care expenses don't stop with medication. Quality of life often means visits to health professionals like physiotherapists, occupational therapists and chiropractors, but these services are no longer subsidized by the Ontario government. That means that people with disabilities may not have the financial access to the services that could make the difference between health and well-being to get ahead in life and a permanent disability. People with disabilities face many obstacles that their able-bodied counterparts do not. In northwestern Ontario, these obstacles are compounded by the geography and climate of the region. Many remote communities are not accessible by roadway even in the best of conditions. The section of the TransCanada Highway that goes through northwestern Ontario is comprised of some 1,000 kilometres of two-lane blacktop that's often closed to traffic due to weather, accidents, police investigations or chemical spills. We cannot even begin to discuss accessibility standards for essential services to which many Ontarians with disabilities have no access in the first place. One of the greatest barriers that people with disabilities face, however, is attitude. Human emotions and beliefs cannot be changed through legislation. PUSH strongly believes that a disability issues and awareness curriculum should be developed for the schools and for key professionals, such as architects and those who design consumer products. At this time, fear, ignorance and outright discrimination against people with disabilities still lead to horrific abuses and violence perpetrated against them. We ask all Ontario legislators to bear these unfortunate facts in mind as they listen to the public feedback on Bill 118. Accessibility itself is fairly easy to define and it is something that can be legislated into affirmative action. If all the right accommodations and accessibility standards were to be put into place over the next 20 years, people with disabilities might well tap into their own potential, but they're going to need a lot of help to simply get on their feet in order for society's doors of opportunity to open. I'm going to turn it back to Pat now. Ms. Seed: One of the things we are looking for and really support is the establishment of committees in different areas which would be networked together to be able to contact one another, to be able to input and to be able to keep making this Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act even more ongoing and more successful. We really encourage all government officials to do that and to set specific timelines for the implementation of those elements of the bill. One of the things we were a little bit concerned about was the fact that there will be penalties for people not complying. However, there will not be, as far as we know, incentives for people who do comply, people who partner and so on and so forth. People who have pensions and so on are actually not able to work, because if they do, then they have difficulty with their pension. The other thing is that we might think of volunteer hours as some kind of -- as you know, volunteerism helps the community grow and therefore is very good for the community, the city etc., and for networking and peer support. I think you can read the rest of the information at your leisure, whatever that is, with all of the things that you must do. Anyhow, we look at this as a really good start, and if you have any questions, we'd be happy to answer them. The Chair: Thank you for your presentation. There are three minutes left, so we'll allow one minute each. Mr. Cameron Jackson (Burlington): Pat, thank you very much for your presentation. It's good to be with you again. It's Cam Jackson from Burlington. I want to make sure I've got your point. You're concerned that you don't want to compromise anybody on ODSP if they find themselves in a position of either helping the Accessibility Standards Advisory Council or the standards development committees, where there might be compensation. Is that correct? Ms. Seed: The aspect is that very often people are penalized by using those methods. They can't be self-employed. They can't collect any income. There should be some kind of base structure whereby an income is established and where a reporting mechanism would be established so that everyone has some kind of livable income and is not basically turned down from a pension because they have so many skills, even though they have been able to apply for jobs and have not found any after applying for 20, 30 or 40 jobs. Mr. Jackson: You realize that those concerns are not covered in this bill. I think what I was asking you was if both Mr. Lepofsky and the ODA committee, as well as your brief, as I understand it, are suggesting that if a person -- well, first of all, you make the point that persons with disabilities should be the majority of and active in setting the standards, monitoring the standards and so on. We need to make that clear in the legislation. But the issue of compensation keeps coming up for those people who participate in that process. I think your answer to me was more generally about persons on ODSP. Mr. Jackson: No, that's OK. What I want to get on the record is that you wish this bill to speak to the issue that if someone is on ODSP, their income isn't compromised by virtue of participating in this process, whether it be a member of the Accessibility Standards Advisory Council or the standards development committees, if in fact compensation or remuneration, even expenses, are covered to that extent. Ms. Jollymore: That's correct. We thank you for adding that in because of the fact that very often persons with disabilities are not compensated and they do voluntary work just to be able to be doing something, to be using their skills so they don't lose their skills. We do indeed hope that the remuneration or stipend or whatever you would have would not penalize their guaranteed income. Mr. Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): Thank you both for coming. Many who came in front of us to make deputations have suggested or said that people who serve on these committees should be remunerated in some way. They don't say how much, but the general feeling was that they should be paid and not volunteer. The question I wanted to raise with you is something that other members have raised throughout and that is that the development of standards, as proposed by the government at the moment, is every five years. The majority of deputants have said that should be reduced to a lesser term. Some people suggest three years, some people say the whole process should last only 10 years, or even less. Do you have any strong feelings about that? Ms. Jollymore: I think that three years is a much more feasible time for a person to say, "Yes, I can absolutely commit to you for three years, except for something unforeseen." I think that gives them some time to learn what is going on and also to be able to get the message out to other consumers of the same and other disabilities. I would hope that much of this legislation could go through and many of these points that are being brought up would be addressed in the next 10 years and, if not, that they actually continue to be followed up. I don't see this as the be all and end all. Mr. Bill Mauro (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): Annie, thank you for being here today. You described the profile of a person with a disability in your comments. You mentioned things like employment opportunities and income levels and post-secondary education. I'm wondering if you find that to be consistent across the province or if you find that there are any regional differences in that sort of profile and description. Ms. Jollymore: I'm not sure. I don't know that I can really speak to other areas of the province. My general understanding is that the conditions are better. Access to health care is better in southern Ontario and eastern Ontario. I don't know about the employment situation. People in the northwest tend to be poorer, as I stated, and have fewer opportunities in general. The main concern, I suppose, is that because of the geographical isolation of this area, some remote communities don't even have access to the services that we do here in Thunder Bay. I don't know if that answers your question. Mr. Mauro: It does. Thank you very much. The Chair: Thank you very much for your presentation. Mr. Leal (Peterborough): Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Mr. Jackson has raised the question about the threshold level for ODSP, and it's been a common theme in Niagara Falls, London and here today. I wonder if I might ask the research assistant to get a copy of a report that was recently prepared by Deb Matthews, who is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Community and Social Services. She went to great lengths to talk about threshold earning levels for people on ODSP and I think the committee would profit from having that background material as we go forward in clause-by-clause, dealing with issues such as compensation for people who may serve on various committees. I think it'd be helpful, so if I could request that to be distributed, it'd be appreciated. The Chair: That will be done. Your presentation is terminated. Thank you. The Chair: We'll ask the next group to come forward and, while they're doing that, we can take any other comments. The next one will be the Ontario Public Service Employees Union, if they could please come forward. Mr. Jackson: On a point of order, Mr. Chair: To build on Mr. Leal's suggestion, I was going to ask if we could get some kind of written comment from the minister or the bureaucrats to deal with the question I raised, which was, will there be an exemption automatically with ODSP in this? Can they create a regulation that will allow that, or will we need to put that into the recommendations? As you know, there was a recent case of a person on assistance who received a windfall from returning money to the police and it was controversial in a sense, but the government stepped in and said, "No, we won't discount you." I want to make sure that we find some accommodation here, and if we could get something in writing from the minister or the government as to how they'll treat that, that would be helpful. The Chair: The question has been asked. Are you clear about the request? Ms. Lorraine Luski: I think that should go to the ministry. The Chair: You're taking records. Would you notify them? Mr. Leal: But you can get a copy of the Matthews report, right? Mr. Jackson: Mr. Chair, the custom then would be for you to direct the request to the minister on behalf of the committee. The Chair: I'm sure the clerk will take care of all that. Mr. Jackson: Well, it really should be in the form of a motion. The Chair: It's a direction. I'm satisfied. If you want to put a motion, put a motion. Mr. Jackson: No, if you're satisfied -- The Chair: The clerk has indicated to me that she will do that. I think we have on paper what you're asking for. ONTARIO
PUBLIC SERVICE The Chair: We'll move on to the next presentation. Gentlemen, good morning. You may start your presentation. Mr. Greg Snider: Hello. My name is Greg Snider. I am Chair of the Disability Rights Caucus for the Ontario Public Service Employees Union. With me today is Jamie Tocker, who is with the board of directors for the Ontario Public Service Employees Union. I am here today to represent the Ontario Public Service Employees Union's Disability Rights Caucus. We believe it is vital that government members reviewing these submissions take time to understand the organizations before them. With this in mind, we will start this presentation with a quick overview of the Ontario Public Service Employees Union's Disability Rights Caucus. Our group is made up of workers with disabilities in the Ontario public service, the broader public service and the community college sector. We believe strongly that persons with disabilities are themselves the best people to represent and speak on their own behalf. For that reason, the caucus is composed only of persons living with a wide variety of disabilities. It is also important to note that within our group a large percentage of us, in our work capacity, provide services to individuals in the disabilities community. We have caucus members working in the Ontario disability support program, in community living programs and in legal aid clinics. We are also union activists and we represent workers. Most of us serve either on a local executive or on an employee-management relations committee or a joint occupational health and safety committee. Nor is our involvement in the disabilities community limited to the workplace. One of our most active members, John Rae, has already addressed this committee in his capacity as national president of the National Federation of the Blind: Advocates for Equality. My union sister Carol McGregor also spoke to you in Toronto. You may recall her. She asked that everyone at the table mention their names so that she would know to whom she was speaking. I understand from people who were watching or listening to the presentation that the members of the committee were taken out of their comfort zones a little by this action. I don't believe this was her intention; she was just being Carol. She needs to know who it is she's speaking to. Did you notice that wasn't an issue for John Rae when he made his presentation? It's because we are all different, and our disabilities are different, even though to others they might seem to be the same. Therefore, what we require in terms of accessibility is different. If Ontario is to be fully accessible by the year 2025, there needs to be a quick and effective format for applying the duty-to-accommodate principles to daily living. The diversity must be reflected in the decisions coming out of this committee and the minister's office. Since we are an organization made up of workers with disabilities, it should come as no surprise that one of our major concerns with this proposed act is the failure to include any mention of disabled workers. This act must recognize that the majority of people with disabilities want quality jobs with quality wages. If barriers are to fall in Ontario, the economic barrier must be the first target. In order for this to happen, workplaces -- and not just the area accessible to the public -- must become fully accessible. Persons with disabilities continue to receive substantially lower wages than those of non-disabled workers. They continue to be denied jobs because they do not meet certain standards, standards that have no connection or the most minimal connection to the duties required for the position. Many people who are injured or become disabled on the worksite have no idea about the employers' responsibility to accommodate. The workers who do understand their rights and have the support of their union still find themselves in a long battle with employers who want nothing to do with a disabled worker. As a result, persons with disabilities frequently end up out of a job that they could in fact perform. What does this proposed act do for these workers? It ignores them. There is no mention of them at all. Sadder still are the consequences, because it's not just workers with disabilities who suffer, but all those looking for employment. The financial barriers facing persons with disabilities just get larger. This act must have a section that educates people as to their rights under the law, and moreover, it must make it easier to exercise those rights. As people with disabilities, we are very concerned about the length of time this act allows for the removal of barriers. Twenty years is a very long time, and is made longer when one considers that this time period will cover four separate provincial elections. The significant gap between this act and the original leads me to believe that every election between the passing of this act and its final implementation will necessitate a battle for its survival. The act is made even more fragile as newly elected governments need not change the act itself but simply the members on the proposed sector committees. In fact, this is a long-standing practice of all parties in the House. Replace the socially progressive minds on the committee with a more corporate attitude and the effectiveness of the act is turned on its head, without a single vote being cast or any announcement made. But even this ignores the most important fact of all: Ontario should already be barrier-free. Every year we delay is another year of injustice to persons with disabilities. In order for this act to be successful, these timelines must be made shorter and the rules around committee membership must be made tighter. Employees must have representation on these committees and these representatives must be people with a history of fighting on behalf of others, even if it is against their own employer. In my mind, such representatives come only from the labour movement. This act also needs additional rewording when speaking to representation of persons with disabilities. It must state clearly that the best representatives of persons with disabilities are persons with disabilities themselves. Government-supported agencies that administer government programs may have a financial interest that does not coincide with the needs of the people they are meant to represent. Our history abounds with attempts by able-bodied people to make our lives better, only to find at the end of the day that solutions suited their needs more than ours. In order for disability-based community groups to be involved, this act needs to provide funding to these volunteer, non-profit organizations. These organizations represent the best voice for people with disabilities. However, they will be unable to fulfill the duties required of them unless there are funds made available in advance to these organizations. To further assist these organizations, their members must be appointed for the duration of the committee's mandate. The advocates and their organizations must receive financial compensation, and that financial compensation must be stated clearly in the act. To do less will result in a genuine loss: the best and most appropriate voices at the table. We are also concerned with the ease with which entire sections of the community could be exempted from this act. Not a word to the media nor a vote in the Legislature would be required. A person with a disability who is watching for a community sector to become accessible may only find out after waiting a considerable amount of time that this particular sector was made exempt. He is left to fight for accessibility after the exemption is made. Months, perhaps even years, will have passed by. This is not acceptable. We will not be disenfranchised by acts of omission or commission. Recently, OPSEU and its members found an even greater reason to distrust the outcome of this act. The act has clearly left a great deal of control to the government, whether in exemptions or appointments. A great deal will depend on this government's commitment to accessibility. This very same government recently tabled its demands for a new collective agreement between itself and OPSEU, the union that represents thousands of workers in the Ontario public service. In that document, under the heading "Accommodation," is the following line: "Employment accommodations and health reassignments can sometimes create challenges, particularly in smaller centres, and the employer wishes to explore potential solutions." As a representative of employees with disabilities, I am concerned with what the government means by "challenges" and what kind of "solutions" they are contemplating. At the bargaining table, such language is known as "weasel words." I trust there is no explanation of that required. In effect, this continues a growing trend in the Ontario public service to back away from an earlier commitment to an accessible workplace. Internal ministry programs such as EASED, under the then Ministry of Community and Social Services, once provided assistance to accommodate employees. These were axed early in the Harris years. Although Management Board has an accommodations fund to assist with the related costs of accommodating its workers, the fund has in fact become more difficult to access. The Chair: You have two minutes left, sir. Mr. Snider: OK. I'm just about done. It is hard to believe in the outcome of this act when its authors have so easily dismissed its aims by their own practices. The current government has also made it harder for persons with disabilities to enforce their right to be accommodated by cutting the staff at the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Almost half of the cases heard by the Human Rights Commission involve persons with disabilities. To be perfectly frank, each one of us in this room knows that fighting for accommodation through the Human Rights Commission takes an extraordinary amount of time, not to mention the perseverance of a superhero. Nonetheless, the OHRC represents one of the very few tools available to pursue our rights, rights that are already codified in legislation. Sadly, the proposed AODA's promised enforcement mechanisms fall far short of what is required to make the act meaningful to the very people who need it most. This is an act filled with a mixture of hope and promises, but little substance. The government needs to tighten this act by making the timelines shorter and the committee more independent. The act needs real teeth. Honestly, I am skeptical that this act can achieve its stated goal of a fully accessible Ontario by 2025. Accessibility isn't about buildings; accessibility isn't about programs; accessibility isn't about government. It's about a way of living. Until politicians are ready to pass an act that requires people to develop substantive, meaningful measures to achieve accessibility, there will be no justice for my members or any of us who live with disabilities. There can be no justice until legislation -- and its enforcement mechanisms -- holds individuals, sectors and all Ontarians accountable when they violate the human rights of their fellow citizens. The Chair: Thank you for your presentation. There's a minute left for Mr. Marchese. Mr. Marchese: Thank you both. You've raised many points. One point I wanted to talk about has to do with the fact that enforcement in this act is very weak. The minister "may" hire inspectors but he doesn't have to; he probably won't. A director "may" review an accessibility report but doesn't have to. There is no one responsible for the administering of penalties -- the fines, for example. So it's weak in this regard. And you, if you have a problem with some disability matter or lack of compliance by some corporation, have no rights to go anywhere except the Human Rights Commission, which is underfunded as it is. So the weaknesses are many, in my view, and you point some of that out. If you want to be able to complain against a corporation that doesn't do what it's supposed to do, where do you go? Mr. Snider: That's the whole issue. Mr. Marchese: What do you think we should do? Mr. Snider: There have to be immediate and quick penalties and quick solutions for the problems that come up. It's just not in this act. The Chair: Thank you very much. That is all the time for the presentation. Thank you again for making the presentation. THUNDER
BAY AND DISTRICT The Chair: We'll move on to the next presentation from the Thunder Bay and District Labour Council. Madam, you also have 15 minutes for your presentation. Good morning. Ms. Sara Williamson: Good morning, and thank you, members of the committee, for coming to Thunder Bay, or being in Thunder Bay, for two of you. Ms. Williamson: These hearings are really important and we're happy to be a part of them. We're also very grateful to our brothers and sisters who have made very strong presentations. The Thunder Bay and District Labour Council represents some 9,000 workers in over 50 local unions. Our members are workers in both the public and private sectors, including educational workers, grain handlers, health care workers, construction workers, maintenance workers, clerical workers, factory workers, miners, retail workers, transportation workers and hospitality workers -- a real gamut of worksites. Many of our affiliates have active committees addressing issues of equity and human rights issues specific to workers with disabilities. OPSEU is a good example. Throughout our history, the Thunder Bay and District Labour Council has been supportive of and has indeed gained a valued resource through the local presence of strong advocacy groups for injured workers and workers from other equity-seeking groups. In Thunder Bay, labour, both unionized and non-unionized, has been fortunate to have these well-informed activists. Unfortunately, many workers sustain irreparable disabilities from injuries or illnesses as a result of their work. The outcome for far too many is unemployment because of accessibility barriers. Northwestern Ontario, like many largely rural areas, is experiencing population decrease. However, on a positive note, the aboriginal population is increasing and, in fact, is the fastest-growing sector of our population. Within the next decade, it is estimated that 50% of Thunder Bay's citizens will be aboriginal people. Here, a well-written Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act, or AODA, will be invaluable. Why? Because a 1991 national study reported that 31% of aboriginal adults have a disability. This is more than double the national rate. The most common disabilities were mobility, agility, hearing and seeing. These demographics underscore the importance of an AODA to ensure that our workforce can get jobs and stay safe and productive regardless of any disability. We have valuable people who can contribute, but there has to be the accommodation. In preparing this brief, Thunder Bay and District Labour Council met with representatives from the Ontario Federation of Labour, Thunder Bay injured workers, Women Independently Living with Disabilities, Thunder Bay WISE, OPSEU and PSAC. The discussions illuminated areas of importance. As a labour council, we are focusing on a number of recommendations brought up by the Ontario Federation of Labour, which in part was informed by the voices of disability advocates both inside and outside the union structure; in particular, ARCH, which is a legal resource centre for persons with disabilities. We chose to focus on these recommendations because they resonate with our collective experiences in the Thunder Bay and district labour force and labour movement. People here and throughout Ontario should have the opportunity to make the kind of contribution they would like to make but are unable to because of inadequate or non-existent accommodations at work. Some accommodations can be very simple, very cheap. It just needs a little creativity, some fresh thinking. Many people in Ontario have disabilities, whether from birth or acquired since then, and many of us have family members or friends who have disabilities. These people should have the right to live and work in a province that values them and recognizes this right by legislation. So, what do we want? Thunder Bay and District Labour Council is pleased that Bill 118 has been drafted. We want the final version to be able to bring marked improvements to the lives of people in the workforce who have disabilities. The amendments that we see are needed concern accountable representation, timeliness and evidence of commitment. Our major concerns and recommendations are as follows: Unions must be formally part of the process at every stage. Unions have the history and the nitty-gritty expertise of working for our members with disabilities to have accommodation in the workplace. Accessibility plans must be bargained in all workplaces. Unions and employers must be required under law to begin this process immediately. The Ontario government, as an employer, should be demonstrating best practices now in the bargaining process with the Ontario Public Service Employees Union. The process of bargaining in the workplace for equity issues worked quite well in enacting David Peterson's Pay Equity Act in 1987; it can be done again today, nearly 20 years later. You sometimes hear employers saying, "Well, we can't hire people with disabilities. The union won't let us." Well, we're saying, "Let's get bargaining on that immediately." There should be no exemptions in Bill 118. No one can be exempted from respecting the right of an individual to have equal access to a job. The timelines, as has been mentioned in all the presentations, are too long. A baby born at Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences Centre today who has or develops a disability would have to wait until she or he is 20 years old to enjoy the full rights of citizenship, including employment opportunities. Easter Seals have stated that there are 180 children in Thunder Bay right now with disabilities. These young people will be ready for work in five or 10 years, but unless Bill 118 is properly amended, we don't know if the workplace will be ready for them. The purpose clause has to spell out that the AODA is anti-discrimination legislation. That is what will give it teeth in any legal challenge. Saying that the purpose is to benefit everyone, frankly, doesn't cut it. Bill 118 is supposed to remedy the systemic exclusion and discrimination that persons with disabilities have experienced and continue to experience. It's not a motherhood clause; it's specific and should be in there. Generalities and vague descriptors have to be clarified. This legislation is too important to be left to the cabinet of the government of the day to work out the specifics. One of the areas that is unclear here is the mechanics of having representatives for persons with disabilities. We expect representatives to play an integral part in the implementation of the AODA. We need to have representatives who are accountable to the community and especially accountable to the community of persons with disabilities. How will the community be involved in selecting representation for a broad cross-disability perspective? The act, in this first draft, doesn't say. Provision for payment of expenses and remuneration is essential for the representatives and the disability organizations; otherwise, no one can participate unless they happen to have their own funds for this purpose. Advocacy voices are as essential here as in all arenas of democratic society. Funding for constructive advocacy activities is imperative. Once again, the act doesn't suggest that people will get paid. Unions must have representatives on any standards development committees -- because unions know the work site -- to speak on behalf of the employees in the industry sector or classes of persons to whom the accessibility standard would apply to make sure the thing really develops and works. In conclusion, Bill 118 offers a framework for much-needed change. Some amendments are required in order to ensure results and show that there is a genuine commitment on the part of the government of Ontario. Our priority is to start the bargaining of accessibility plans now in all workplaces to make them more accessible. Keep the vision clear of a healthy and productive 21st-century workplace that accommodates people with all kinds of disabilities. Here is an opportunity for the government to show some leadership by passing strong, effective legislation and by establishing best practices that go beyond the legislation. The people of Ontario voted for real change when they turfed out the Tories. This is a golden opportunity to show true grit. Thank you again for the opportunity to share our thoughts with you. We sincerely hope that the government will listen carefully to the voices raised around the province: the voices of people living with disabilities, advocates for disability rights and union activists seeking improvements in the working lives of people with disabilities. Amend the bill. Give it more teeth. Help build an Ontario that cares about its workforce. The Chair: Thank you. We'll start from the government side, one minute each. Mr. Gravelle: Thank you very much for your presentation. I appreciate the comments you made. In terms of the time frame, certainly the 20-year time frame has come up before. But I think it's fair to say, too, that it's important. This is a piece of legislation that for the first time really removes the barriers not just in the public sector but in the private sector as well, and there are some challenges in making that happen. I trust that you understand that and accept that. Obviously you'd like to see it happen in a shorter time frame, but is there the recognition of a challenge to make sure we do this right, that when we get to the end of the time frame for this legislation, we are indeed a barrier-free society? I guess part of the reason we would say that is, we don't want to get it wrong. Ms. Williamson: I think it's good to keep reflecting on what's being done and having that ongoing evaluation. But there aren't any other milestones set in the legislation. That's why we were just choosing, for one thing, getting at bargaining in the workplace right away. There's no reason to delay that, and that would come up with a lot of answers that would be able to be applied elsewhere too. Mr. Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): Thank you for your presentation today. The goal of the bill is have Ontario fully accessible by 2025, and you've said in your presentation that there should be no exceptions, no exemptions. The last time I was in Thunder Bay, I toured a couple of the forestry mills, one being fairly old. I'm wondering, in the real day-to-day life of a mill, how you make it fully accessible, and what your thoughts are for 2025. What do you envision 20 years from now, and how would it be reached? Ms. Williamson: I wouldn't pretend to have expertise in that area, but that just underscores why it needs to come into the bargaining process between the unions and the employers in the workplace. The unions recognize what has happened to their workers, with the kinds of disabilities they've developed and how accommodations could be made. It's not good enough to just compensate somebody and pretend to have a return-to-work plan that isn't any kind of meaningful return-to-work plan at all. The unions feel that a lot more could be done and are willing to open up talks, and the employers should do likewise. If it were in the legislation that it should happen, then there's a chance of its happening. Mr. Marchese: I just want to comment on your recommendations. First of all, I want to tell you that a lot of deputants agree with you that there should be a provision for payment of expenses and remuneration; many people have said that. Many have also said that the community should have some role in selecting representatives from a broad cross-disability perspective. Many agree with you that the purpose clause is flawed and/or weak -- maybe that's purposely done. Many have suggested that there should be language that speaks to anti-discrimination, which is what this issue has been and is all about, but it's nowhere incorporated in the purpose clause. I'm surprised, and I know you and many others are too. Many agree with you that the timelines are just too long and that the challenge is actually doing something rather than doing very little. This is about dealing with discrimination -- we know what the issue is all about -- and we should be doing it right away. I should tell you, Sara, that I think the Liberals have no interest in involving the unions formally, and that the Liberals have no interest in making accessibility plans something that happen in the workplace, which would make sure these things get dealt with. All I can say is, keep at it. There are a couple of Liberals you can lobby on a regular basis up here. The Chair: Thank you very much for coming this morning. AUTISM
SOCIETY ONTARIO, The Chair: We'll move on to the next presentation, from the Autism Society Ontario, Thunder Bay chapter. Good morning. You have 15 minutes for your presentation. We do have people assisting us here today. If anyone needs any assistance, please let us know. You can start any time you're ready. Ms. Michelle Murdoch-Gibson: I'm Michelle Murdoch-Gibson. I'm president of the local chapter of the Autism Society Ontario. There are 31 chapters across the province. I represent not only them but also my two sons, who are on the autism spectrum. I applaud the courage and strength required of the people with disabilities who are here advocating on their own behalf, but today I speak on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves, either because they cannot speak at all or because the social and sensory impairments they suffer from preclude their participation in a forum such as this. First I'll tell you a little bit about the autism society. The ASO seeks to provide information and education, supporting research and advocating for programs and services for the autism community. Our vision is acceptance and opportunities for all individuals with autism spectrum disorders. The ASO's mission is to ensure that each individual with ASD is provided the means to achieve quality of life as a respected member of society. We have six key areas of focus: advocacy and support, research, best practices, government relations, public awareness and governance. Our values include respect and support for family and individual choices, informed families, integrity, confidentiality, commitment to continuous improvement, universality and the support of research. "Pervasive developmental disorders" is the diagnostic term used to refer to the more popular term, "autism spectrum disorders." It is a spectrum; there are a number of disorders that fall within that spectrum, including autism disorder, childhood disintegrative disorder, Rett syndrome, PDD-NOS and Asperger syndrome. Autism spectrum disorder is estimated to affect between 20,000 and 70,000 people in Ontario today. It is one of the most common developmental disabilities, with prevalence estimates as high as one in 165 people. The number of people being diagnosed with ASD continues to increase dramatically. ASD is a hidden disability. All people with ASD have problems in the areas of social interaction and communication skills. There is a wide range of ability levels among people with ASD, and communication challenges can range from mild to severe, with approximately one third of people with ASD remaining non-verbal throughout their lifetime. A majority of people with ASD have a significant level of cognitive impairment, although those with Asperger syndrome have more normal levels of cognitive functioning. I'll give you a quote now from Temple Grandin in her 1995 Thinking in Pictures publication. It speaks to her own personal experience as a child. "I can remember the frustration of not being able to talk at age three. I could understand what people said to me, but I could not get my words out. It was like a big stutter, and starting words was difficult. I can remember logically thinking to myself that I would have to scream because I had no other way to communicate." There are barriers for people with ASD. Regardless of functioning level, people with ASD face significant barriers to participating in the mainstream of Ontario life. Things that other people take for granted remain elusive for many people with ASD: appropriate education, employment, leisure activities, supported or independent housing for adults. It is the view of Autism Society Ontario that much of the current legislation, including the ODA, 2001, does not adequately address the needs of people with ASD. How will the ODA make a meaningful difference in the lives of people with ASD? The ODA overwhelmingly addresses barriers in terms of physical barriers, but there is little emphasis on the types of attitudinal barriers and policy barriers that constrict the lives of people with ASD. In order to make Ontario a barrier-free place for persons with autism spectrum disorders, changes need to be made to government policy in four key areas. We've identified these areas as being housing, day programs, the Ontario disability support plan and education. Housing and residential services: Historically, most children with autism spectrum disorder were institutionalized at some point during their childhood. This is no longer the case. Most children with ASD remain with their families throughout their childhood, and very often, throughout their adulthood. The majority of adults with ASD are not able to live independently. While many ASD adults continue to require a high level of assistance with basic activities of daily living, such as dressing and personal hygiene, adults with Asperger syndrome and more able levels of ASD may be unable to manage the more intricate aspects of independent living, such as household budgeting and maintenance, or to develop the social relationships necessary for functioning in society. Challenges in understanding the motivation and intention of others impact on their daily interactions, such as paying bills or dealing with salespersons. Developing and maintaining relationships are crucial to successful independent living and are a significant barrier for individuals who are cognitively more able but who experience difficulties with social understanding. There is currently a waiting list of many years to access residential services across the province of Ontario. Many adults remain in crisis at their family home for years. There are many adult parents over the age of 65, often in poor health themselves, looking after their adult children with ASD. When both parents are deceased, the adult with ASD is moved into any of the available residential placements, including locked wards in psychiatric hospitals, long-term-care facilities for seniors, or other placements unsuitable for adults with ASD. If the goal of the ODA is to encourage meaningful participation of people with disabilities in the community, then it must address government policies that fail to provide for adequate residential housing services and recognize that appropriate housing and residential services for adults with ASD are essential if adults with ASD are to be participants in this community. Adults with ASD require a range of housing and residential service options. Some higher-functioning adults could function fairly independently, with assistance only for budgeting, food preparation and household maintenance. Other adults will require more intensive support of the kind that can be provided in group homes with some staffing assistance. Some adults with ASD will require one-to-one care for most of their lives in highly structured environments. Some examples of excellence in residential supports for adults with ASD in Ontario are Woodview Manor in Hamilton; Kerry's Place has various locations throughout southern and eastern Ontario; certain placements with Community Living Ontario; and families creatively supporting their adult children through individualized funding. The importance of appropriate housing for adults with ASD cannot be underestimated. The lack of appropriate adult housing precludes full participation in the community by both the elderly parents of the adult with ASD and the adult with ASD himself. Living at home with elderly parents is often a prescription for isolation and lack of meaningful daily activities for both the parents and the child. After most adults with ASD leave high school at the age of 21, there is no place for them to go. They do not participate meaningfully in community life; they are stuck at home, socially isolated. They have limited financial support, limited availability of trained workers who can help them participate in the community, and they have limited access to activities in which they have the skills to participate. Government policies must not fail to provide adequate funding for community support agencies. Existing programs have waiting lists of several years. Many provide service only for clients who are also receiving residential services. Policies of some community agencies may discriminate against people with severe autism, and those who require higher levels of assistance or those with behavioural problems are often barred from attending these programs. The level of financial support received through the Ontario disability support program has not changed substantially in the past 10 years. The lack of increase has increased financial hardship for persons dependent on this funding and created barriers to participation in community activities to people with ASD. The policy of decreasing ODSP payments as earned income increases penalizes people with ASD who want to work but are unable to work full-time or at jobs that provide adequately for their needs. Adults with Asperger syndrome face unique challenges to employment. They have some valuable employment skills but still need assistance in obtaining and maintaining jobs. Because of their difficulties with social understanding and social skills, most of these adults may not perform well in job interviews and have difficulty getting hired or, once hired, may be able to perform the work tasks but have difficulty keeping the job due to their inappropriate social behaviours. Many adults with ASD struggle with difficulties, such as high levels of anxiety and higher rates of mental health challenges such as depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder. These additional disorders may result in unintentional and inconsistent performance in employment situations. The ODA could recommend guidelines and meaningful procedures for ODSP that would make it more meaningful for adults with ASD. The Ontario disability support program provides a separate income and employment support program for eligible people with disabilities. It removes people with disabilities from the welfare system and provides them with assistance that recognizes their unique needs. The ODA could work to alleviate these problems by helping companies to understand invisible disabilities. People with ASD would also benefit from programs that would help them understand their rights in terms of employment and discrimination and would help include job interview assistance and job coaching. Assistance from a specialized employment agency would be beneficial. An example of this is an agency in southern Ontario called Mission Impossible that specializes in helping people with ASD find jobs that match their abilities. ASO's submission to the Ontario Human Rights Commission on education in October 2003 identified four major barriers to appropriate special education for students with ASD. These four key barriers are: The appeal process under the Education Act presents a significant barrier to the appropriate special education programs and services; the lack of knowledge of the disability and the lack of specialized training on how to effectively work with and teach students with ASD is another barrier to education; the funding formula for special education discriminates against some students with ASD; and the enforced short- and long-term absence from school for many students with ASD also creates a barrier to education. ASO recommends four key solutions to these barriers: (1) The Ministry of Education and school boards must operate under the statutes, regulations and codes that are meant to protect Ontarians with disabilities. (2) In the event of non-compliance, parents must have meaningful recourse to a remedy, a timely and just process that will ensure the student's progression through the school system. (3) The legislation and subsequent regulations of the Education Act must adhere to the principles of accessibility for the disabled student. Necessary accommodations include the following: All school boards must offer a full range of placement options, ranging from full integration with support, as necessary, to full segregation in order to meet the diverse needs of students with ASD. Programming based on ongoing and continuous assessments, with input from parents and a wide range of professionals; Specialized communication programs, designed by speech and language therapists knowledgeable and experienced in programming for students with autism spectrum disorders, and implemented by trained staff, for all autistic students who require this; Academic, social skills and behaviour modification programs designed by professionals experienced in the use of behavioural principles to teach children with ASD; Curriculum material and equipment designed and appropriate for students with ASD, available across the province; Mandatory ongoing training for teachers and educational assistants who work with and teach students with ASD, available across the province; Special skills and service dogs, where necessary, for students with ASD, to provide safety, communication, socialization and anxiety therapies. The Chair: Your time is over, but if it's only that section -- Ms. Murdoch-Gibson: That's it. The Chair: Then go ahead, please. Ms. Murdoch-Gibson: Finally, the Ministry of Education must fund special education to a level such that the school boards can provide students with ASD with the services and supports they require in order to have equal access to education. To remove barriers for students with ASD within the education system, the ODA must make the removal of barriers mandatory. This must apply not only to barriers that limit physical access. Limited access to appropriate education because of attitudinal barriers, communication barriers, accommodation policies and funding policies of both the government and the school boards must also be addressed. The Chair: Thank you very much for your presentation. We will have to move on to the next presentation. Again, thank you for coming here this morning. THUNDER
BAY AND DISTRICT The Chair: The next presentation is from the Thunder Bay and District Injured Workers' Support Group. Steve Mantis, please. Mr. Mantis, you can start any time you're ready. Mr. Steve Mantis: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to the members of the committee for travelling here to Thunder Bay. I want to start by saying that we support this bill and the intent behind it. I should step back here and be a little bit more polite. On my right is Filomena Simone, who's a member of our board of directors, and Robert Guillet, who is vice-president of our board of directors. The Thunder Bay and District Injured Workers' Support Group is a voluntary organization. We're now in our 21st year. We have two main goals. One is to provide information and support to workers with disabilities, and the other is to try to make the system for injured and disabled workers work better for everyone. I'd refer you to our brief, where we have a little bit of information in terms of what it's like to be an injured worker. I would specifically refer you to page 10, which was a survey we did two months ago here in Thunder Bay of workers who have a permanent disability. We found that 79% were unemployed and that 68% were suffering from depression. That's the percentage who admitted they were suffering from depression; I'm sure that a number of them wouldn't admit it. Twenty-five per cent said they had considered committing suicide after their injury and disability. Clearly, here are people who have a link to the workplace, who have work histories, who have relationships with the employer. Once you become disabled, you're pretty much surplus. You're thrown on the garbage heap. While other people with disabilities know this already, to workers who become disabled during their working career, this is all new, and of course, you can see the impact that can have on a person. We've seen -- and it's just anecdotal -- the number of family problems and lost marriages following this kind of stuff. We've been doing this for 21 years. It's interesting to see that this bill is to go for 20 years. Well, over 20 years ago we sat before a committee like this, and we've been talking for 20 years. The system isn't getting any better; the system's getting worse. So talk is good; we support that. We sit around and we talk about this stuff and we try to figure out ways to make it better, but I think we see, as well, that it takes more than talk. So when we say we support this bill, we do that with the hope that you can bring forward some amendments that will close some of the loopholes, that will make this bill more powerful. Personally, I went to school and studied history. So a lot of what of perceive is from looking at the past and trying to see how that affects the future. I know a lot of you haven't been around in the House for 20 years or more, but we wouldn't be here today if it weren't for people with disabilities and their organizations lobbying you guys and fighting for disability rights. You know, the 10 years of the ODA committee -- and we've been involved in that on this level -- it was other people. From lobbying government to lobbying service providers, the people in this room can tell you we've been working in this town for 35 years to get people to shift the attitude from, "Once you're disabled; you're a charity case," to being able to live independently. We're not there yet. We talk about Thunder Bay as being one of the most accessible communities, but you've heard today that we're not there yet. What I've seen too, in terms of history, is what is said and what is done. We've seen a lot of great language coming from all three parties about how we're going to make it better for disabled workers. And what do we see? We see the system getting worse. If you look at the numbers we've supplied in the brief, from the best research that has been done, the biggest studies, over 50% are unemployed once they become disabled at work. The new system that we've had in place for 15 years now shows that less than 20% of people with a permanent disability who get hurt at work are receiving benefits. This is better? So less than 20% are receiving benefits; 50% are unemployed. So this is better? This is where we're going? I would ask you to reflect on who's here today. Who's making presentations? When I look at the list, almost everyone here has disabilities. They're the ones who care about this issue. Yes, there is support and people say good things otherwise, but it is the people who live with it day in and day out who are committed to this issue, and if this bill doesn't support that and doesn't have in place mechanisms that involve people like the people in this room presenting, where are we going to go? Who's going to be fighting for our rights? Are you guys going to do it? Are you going to sit in these things and fight for our rights? I don't know. I know the people here who've been doing it for 10, 15, 20, 25 years will. It's really interesting, because if you look at history and you try to figure out what's going on around the world, you see that the United Nations has dealt with this issue. Ten years ago they printed a paper and last year I quoted -- they have another paper, that came out. They have said that if you want to have inclusive communities, if you want to provide good services and programs for people with disabilities, you have to involve them, not as individuals but as organizations wh |